Clinton Flip-Flop

Which one is it? Is Clinton tough enough to deal with the pressures of running for President? Is she tough enough to deal with this race which she once deemed as "one of the most positive campaigns" in her career.

Maybe it depends on how things are going. When things were going well for Clinton, votes in FL and MI didn't count and this campaign is positive.

But when things start going negative, it is about gender and the media being unfair. Oh yeah, MI and FL are being disenfranchised too!

April 5th


"If you can't stand the heat, don't run for president because it's a really hot kitchen in the White House, I'll tell you that much,"

"I think this has been, by and large, one of the most positive and civil campaigns I've ever been a part of or know about,"

"For those who are new to politics ... it can be eye-opening especially when you choose sides and you're for one or the other of us, that you can take very personally anything anybody says."

http://blogs.reuters.com/trail08/2008/04 05/clinton-if-you-cant-stand-the-heat-d ont-run-for-president

May 20th


"It's been deeply offensive to millions of women," Clinton said told The Washington Post in an interview, in which she pinned blame primarily on tolerant attitudes in the media...

Clinton said she did not believe the campaign had been tainted by racism, adding that racism is apparently less tolerated in US society than sexism.

"There should be equal treatment of the sexism and the racism when it raises its ugly head," she said.

"It does seem as though the press at least is not as bothered by the incredible vitriol that has been engendered by the comments by people who are nothing but misogynists."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080520/pl_ afp/usvoteclintonwomen_080520151712

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the Kitchen Mrs. Clinton. You can't have it both ways - at least that is what Bill Clinton said just a few weeks ago. Right?



Display:


sad (2.00 / 4)

What is sad is that people still feel driven to have to point this stuff out and make these arguments.  Can it be any more clear that she is wasting time and working to divide the party?

When Tsongas bowed out of the race in '92, (long before Hillary bizarrely claims now) he simply pointed out that his chances had diminished to a point that party unity was more important than his desire to continue.

That's the standard historic precedent in these things.  

There is a reason it's so difficult to distinguish the Republican trolls from some of Hillary's supporters at this point.

Why can't people support her as a Democrat on the issues, as a former first lady and as the Democratic senator from New York?  That's who she is.  She is not a contender for the Democratic nomination.  Her pretending that she is and people choosing to buy into it is the worst thing happening to the Democratic Party right now.  

Here's hoping June 4 brings us a united party.    


by Sun Dog on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:17:40 AM EST

Re: sad (2.00 / 2)

You do realize the vast majority of Democrats want her to stay in the race, right? And she has said she is staying in until the end. For crying out loud, there's 2 weeks left. Give her until that. By calling so loudly for her to exit you are alienating a lot people whose support you'll need to bring Obama into the White House. She is a contender for the White House, regardless of whether you like it or not. I'm sorry that in your mind "Republican trolls = Clinton supporters"; I'll forget this in November, but I'll also understand people who won't.


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:23:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sad (2.00 / 2)

There is no end game in the Clinton plan. They plan to fight every single technicality and even go to Denver. This is what it is all about - the Clintons.

Why should she get to finish when she is behind by more delegates than are available? Would Edwards still be in the race if the numbers where the same between he and Obama?

Are we treating her special because she's a woman?

Think about that for a few minutes.


Obama 08!
by comingawakening on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:31:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Wrong question (2.00 / 3)

Are we treating her special because she's a woman?

I think the question should be:

Are we treating her special because she's a Clinton?


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.

That One/Another Fella '08

by Dracomicron on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:34:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sad (2.00 / 1)

"Are we treating her special because she's a woman?"

No. Are we treating her special because she's a Clinton? I think also no. I think on June 4th, this will be over. If you really can't wait until then, I'm sorry about that.


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:40:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sad (2.00 / 1)

And if June 4th comes and goes, and the math gets even more cosmically improbable for Senator Clinton, and she still doesn't concede, will you join us in pressuring her to gracefully end the race so that Senator Obama can direct all his effort and attention to campaigning against McCain?


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:49:01 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sad (2.00 / 4)

Absolutely, as I've said before.


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:52:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sad (2.00 / 1)

Fair. But I don't think it will happen on June 4th. I think she will fight all the way to the convention.


Obama 08!
by comingawakening on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:59:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sad (none / 0)

I agree, I think she's in it until the convention at this point; but I will happily eat my words if VAAlex is correct.


Proud member of the Wikipedia Generation of American politics
by BishopRook on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:02:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sad (none / 0)

Look, first props to VAAlex,  not sure if you were in the deepend but you said something logical there.

Clinton has ZERO to stand on June 5, we have SO VERY FAIR by letting her run her campaign through gutter for longer than any "archaic" political party would ever allow.

All this nonsense talk about a "broken primary" system for the Dems is ludicrous.  

My bets on June 5?

Well, if I know Clinton, she does not want to quit, but with the recent gaffes and huge debt she will prob suspend her campaign, and then have McCaulife and Wolfson on 3 hour conference calls explaing how Suspension and Active Campain are the same thing.


http://www.truepat.org/
by CrushTheGOP2008 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:06:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sad (none / 0)

I don't think she will, because I don't think the party will let her.  If she fights all the way to the convention, she'll pretty much be standing all by herself (or, more properly, she and Bill will be standing by themselves) by the time she gets there.


Join the Matthew 25 Network and help Democrats win the next generation of evangelicals.
by mistersite on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:57:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sad (none / 0)

The 'party' can't stop her, else wise they would have already because of her corrosive campaign.

She's going to take it all the way to the convention, Rachel Maddow outlined how she'll so, no matter the outcome of Saturday, she keeps going to the rules committee concerning FL and MI--she's set to do that all through the summer.

Then at the convention she'll demand vote after vote on the nomination--UNLESS Obama puts her in as VP--, oh and people WILL stand with her, a few, but they are very strong, and will just stand up for her.

Bill Clinton will continue to go around telling people "Look she's already winning the General Election--"

BUT people are HIDING that little fact--I've never seen anything like that"

And Clinton herself will keep on campaigning going deeper and deeper into debt--I think now it's at $30 million.

She's set to take the party down, because, very sadly, it's all about what the Clinton's want.

Seems to me that if she wanted that VP spot so badly, she would have been more of a team player, and more of a uniter and not the divider she's become.


by Wary on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:21:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's not just that. (2.00 / 1)

Huckabee was in the race until McCain won the needed delegates, but he didn't make a fuss.  Clinton, I think you can agree, has been extremely vocal in trying to stay somehow viable; instead of running simply on her merits, she's started to run against the DNC and prevailing culture in efforts to show how she's been mistreated.

To many, what she's doing sounds like a veiled threat... like she'll take things to the convention if she doesn't get Michigan and Florida seated in the most beneficial way possible... for her.

Nobody credible is really calling for her to get out of the race; that's largely a strawman that people like McAluffe peddle to try and increase sympathy for their "plight."  Folks are just wondering why she's fighting so hard when the nominee is essentially chosen already; historically, her wedge arguments have generally only led to hardship and defeat for Democrats.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.

That One/Another Fella '08

by Dracomicron on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:33:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's not just that. (none / 0)

I'll agree with you there. I'm not a fan of this going to the convention, and as I've stated before, on June 4th I look forward to having a nominee. Only until then, however.

I very much appreciate your comments Dracomicron; you're one of the most reasonable people on here and always are constructive and engaging on substance.


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:39:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I hope you don't think I just single you out (2.00 / 1)

I generally respond to your comments because I think that you will get that I'm not just going ad hominem at you.

I'm trying hard to set aside my personal feelings about Obama and look at it from a historical precident.  The last time we had a second place contender fighting this hard at this stage of the game, it was Teddy Kennedy vs. Jimmy Carter.  I don't know if either of them had a chance against Reagan, but the inner-party squabbling sure didn't help us.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.

That One/Another Fella '08

by Dracomicron on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:44:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I hope you don't think I just single you out (2.00 / 1)

I don't feel singled out. Like I said, you engage with reason and substance, regardless of who it is.

I agree with you on Teddy v. Jimmy; I think Clinton herself even knows that on June 4th this is over. And if she still doesn't get the hint, the final undecided supers should give it to Obama shortly thereafter.

Let's also assume as is widely expected some sort of compromise is hashed out and MI/FL are seated somehow. This raises the number of required delegates for the nomination, so I think the remaining undecided supers really need to get their act together and just end it on June 4th. One way or another.


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:51:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sad (none / 0)

"For crying out loud, there's 2 weeks left. Give her until that."

Okay. But after that, will you agree it's time to end this one way or another, or will you be saying "give her until the convention of late August"?


by Aris Katsaris on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:35:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sad (2.00 / 1)

The vast majority of Democrats want free beer on Friday.  That doesn't mean it is right.  I don't see any good reason for Clinton to stay in the race at this point.  Do I have to silence that opinion because the vast majority of Democrats disagree with me on that issue?  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:41:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sad (none / 0)

I just don't buy the 'alienating Democrats' thing.

I don't think it makes any sense to pander to people who aren't making sense.  Jumping through hoops of illogic to please them doesn't make any sense or show them any respect.  Pandering is the opposite of respect.  

What makes sense is to finish this thing as soon as possible so Hillary loses her liscence to unermine the nominee.  What makes sense it to campaign to those people on the issues, not on their affection for that one politician.  That's how to show them respect.  Remember?  Talk to them about the issues that matter to their lives, my life, my daughter's life.  It actually seems the only point of Hillary's campaign at this stage is to prevent party unity for as long as possible.  

And I didn't say 'Republican trolls = Clinton supporters."  I said it's a problem when we're in a situation where it's so difficult to tell the two apart.  It says something about the campaign she is running and the effect it is having on the people who supported her.  

If indeed she behaves like a Democrat and bows out gracefully on June 4, that's fine.  But the benchmarks for ending this thing keep getting pushed ahead with the tone of her campaign becoming increasingly negative and destructive.  Without serious pressure, it seems doubtful that she would do the right thing.  I would love to be wrong about that.  

Pretending she is still in the race to avoid stepping on the toes of people who refuse to acknowledge reality isn't going to help us win in November.  We've had enough of 'fair and balanced' arguments that claim fiction is balanced with fact.  We need to have a party worth figthing for.    


by Sun Dog on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:52:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: sad (none / 0)

Actually 1 week.  We've waited this long; one more week won't kill anyone.


Beat McCain!
by thezzyzx on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:53:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Flip-Flop (2.00 / 1)

I think the heat stuff is taking critism of policy, which Obama seems to have a big problem anytime anyone questions one of his policys or CiC role.

She didn't say that there is a free-role on racism or sexism. Evidently in this campaign, and I'm a straight man there has clearly been sexism, and it's been tolerated unlike racism.


by Jaz on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:19:17 AM EST

Re: Clinton Flip-Flop (2.00 / 3)

It's not a flip-flop. She was speaking in general terms in the first quote about the pressures of running and about the pressures of being President. The second one was in response to a direct question she was asked in regards to media coverage.

I think, to Clinton's credit, sexism was largely off the table because she passed the 'Commander in Chief' test early, was a known entity, and did a good job portraying herself as 'tough enough'. No one would say she's not 'tough enough' for the White House. Not to say sexism didn't exist,  though (Chris Matthews, anyone?).

Obama, on the other hand, has to deal with more since he is an unknown entity (not anymore, but was at the beginning of the campaign) and was a lot more susceptible to general racism (even in this late game -- take a look at the WV and KY exit polls).

I could also say the same about Obama flip-flopping on MI & FL, though, but I won't because I know context matters and selective quoting is a very easy game to play.


"If we can't live together... we're going to die alone."
by VAAlex on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:20:40 AM EST

Re: Clinton Flip-Flop (none / 0)

What is this Obama MI & FL flip-flop? Please mention other flip-flops. We can have a contest to see which candidate flip-flopped the most and which candidate attack the other more? Let me know when you want to start.

You see, when you make a statement like the one you did above, it doesn't become true just because mydd.com allowed to you to post it. Facts are stubborn things so please own up and post your flip-flop fact.


Obama 08!
by comingawakening on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:34:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Flip-Flop (none / 0)

I could also say the same about Obama flip-flopping on MI & FL, though, but I won't because I know context matters and selective quoting is a very easy game to play.

Though I disagree that there was much flip-flopping in Obama's disenfranchised states position, you get mojo for realizing that it's not a very productive argument at this point.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.

That One/Another Fella '08

by Dracomicron on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:36:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Flip-Flop (1.00 / 1)

diarist is on a roll.  thank god this is his/her last diary.

and people call yellowdem a troll? This person is more troll-like than yellowdem


by colebiancardi on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:23:34 AM EST

Re: Clinton Flip-Flop (2.00 / 1)

Facts are stubborn things. Just because you blindly follow your cult leader doesn't take away from the facts and the statements that she's made.

It's simple for you to attack me instead of making an argument against my facts. This typically means you can't support HRC. She's indefensible.


Obama 08!
by comingawakening on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:37:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Flip-Flop (2.00 / 1)

All politicians, including {gasp} Obama make decisions based on politics.


by colebiancardi on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:55:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Flip-Flop (2.00 / 1)

also, Hillary is pointing out a fact that the MSM has been over the top with their sexist comments.  MediaMatters had a great piece on this.  Just because you choose to ignore those facts, doesn't mean that a) Hillary is a flip-flopper and b) she can't stand the heat.

last time I checked, she is still in the race.


by colebiancardi on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:56:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Flip-Flop (none / 0)

Last time I checked she lost the race.


http://www.truepat.org/
by CrushTheGOP2008 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:10:25 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Flip-Flop (2.00 / 1)

really?  did the August convention come & go?  Did Hillary suspend or concede the primary yet?

nope.


by colebiancardi on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:12:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Flip-Flop (none / 0)

You can't be nominated with less delegates.

The lead is insurmountable, so why are you having me tell you stuff you already know.


http://www.truepat.org/
by CrushTheGOP2008 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:15:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Flip-Flop (none / 0)

oh, btw, my comment is not insulting unless YOU think yellowdem is a troll.

I don't think yellowdem is a troll, nor the diarist.  note the words I used.


by colebiancardi on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:14:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Flip-Flop (none / 0)

I dont know if he is a troll or not, but he is republican.

Regardless, his name is offensive.   Where I am from Yellowdog and Bushdog Democrats are my enemies posing as friends.

So his love of the name is an act of aggression, meaning as soon as I saw his name, I knew his diaries would be looking for a fight AND THEY DO!


http://www.truepat.org/
by CrushTheGOP2008 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:16:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

i just hope (none / 0)

she takes it to the convention


by nikkid on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:37:34 AM EST

Me too (none / 0)

if by "it" you mean all of her support, enthusiasm, and talent.  


by the mollusk on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:40:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

She's going to have a monster concession speech (none / 0)

It'll be great.


In this avalanche, the pebbles get to vote.

That One/Another Fella '08

by Dracomicron on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:44:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: She's going to have a monster concession speec (none / 0)

Yes, I can't WAIT to see my favorite former candidate give her most fiery pro-democratic party speech at the Convention.

I also can't wait to see her as part of my fantasy dreamteam for the Septempber campaign stops.
I see her Edwards and Richardson roadtripping around America doing stump rallies for Obama.


http://www.truepat.org/
by CrushTheGOP2008 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:12:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

To the convention (none / 0)


If I were her, I would give the entire party the finger and stay until the convention. After what she has ben accused of that would serve everybody right.

I am paraphrasing but it goes like that:
1) The clinton campaign/supporter are insinuating that Obama is out of touch and inexperienced.

2) The Obama Supporters are insinuating that Clinton wants to destroy the party and calls for the assasination of BO.

maybe the MSM thinks it's even Steven but not me.

Party loyalty goes both ways, if the party is not loyal to her maybe she should do without, that would be fun to watch.


by TaiChiMaster on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:49:51 AM EST

Re: To the convention (none / 0)

You realize the Obama supporters in no way say she's calling for his assassination and the reason we think she's out to destroy the party is that she's shown no indication that she plans to withdraw before the convention, right? And that as bad at McCain really is at this stuff, the only way he can win is if the Democrats do something ridiculously stupid, such as having a floor fight at the convention?


by Geiiga on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:54:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To the convention (2.00 / 1)

Oh right I forgot,

Another thing that the Obama camp is doing is to prehemptively blame a possible Obama defeat on her.

thanks for reminding me.


by TaiChiMaster on Tue May 27, 2008 at 10:59:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: To the convention (none / 0)

Yea that comment was really nasty.

If you believe that sleep deprivation caused her to make up stories about being shot at then you can believe she didn't calculate the Assassination comments over and over again.

Personally I think the assassination gaffe was intentional, not that she meant it, just that her campaign needs media attention to stay relevant.

The media practically ignored her for a while until Friday night


http://www.truepat.org/
by CrushTheGOP2008 on Tue May 27, 2008 at 11:19:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton Flip-Flop (none / 0)

"Clinton said she did not believe the campaign had been tainted by racism"

Oh, no.  Are you kidding me?  How sad.  Does she have to deny somebody else's oppression in order for hers to be more valid?


McCain: because not everyone's ready to say goodbye to W yet!
by Matt Smith on Tue May 27, 2008 at 12:31:43 PM EST


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