Context

Josh says "no context can save her" and maybe he's right, but I have to say that, while my first reaction upon reading the comments was "WTF?" after watching the video, I realized the point she was inartfully trying to make was simply that in 1968 the nomination fight was still going on in June. And indeed, the Clinton campaign's statement confirmed as much:

A Clinton campaign spokesman said Clinton "was simply referencing her husband in 1992 and Bobby Kennedy in 1968 as historical examples of the nomination process going well into the summer. Any reading beyond that would be inaccurate."

That context is important. Her intention is important. And it's not even parsing her words to come to the conclusion I did, nor is it some apologia, it was simply my honest reading of what she said as I heard her say them, as cringe-inducing as her choice of words was on the surface. The reason I feel it's important to make this point is that some in the diaries are saying "she was making the case that anything can happen." No, it would be inexcusable for her to raise that spectre in terms of 2008, she never would. Elsewhere I've seen it suggested that Hillary's comments demonstrate that she wishes harm to come to Barack Obama. And I'm just thinking to myself, wow, is this the point we've come to? In some corners of the blogosphere, the anti-Clinton derangement has risen to such a level that it's gone beyond the shit Republicans were peddling in the 90s? Truly amazing. Josh, of course, is making a much different point, one which I respect, although don't necessarily share.

For me, honestly, it was nothing more than an unfortunate choice of historical references and as her apology makes clear, she would agree (over the fold.)

"I was discussing the Democratic primary history and in the course of that discussion mentioned the campaigns of both my husband and Senator (Robert) Kennedy waged in California in June in 1992 and 1968 and I was referencing those to make the point that we have had nomination primary contests that go into June. That's a historic fact," she said.

"The Kennedys have been much on my mind the last days because of Senator Kennedy," she added, referring to Sen. Edward M. Kennedy's recent diagnosis of a brain tumor. "I regret that if my referencing that moment of trauma for our entire nation and in particular the Kennedy family was in any way offensive. I certainly had no intention of that whatsoever.

"My view is that we have to look to the past to our leaders who have inspired us, give us a lot to live up to, and I'm honored to hold Senator Kennedy's seat in the United States Senate from the state of New York and have the highest regard for the Kennedy family," she said.



Display:


Re: Context (1.71 / 7)

Let's not abbreviate the issue: it's clear that Clinton is not in any way calling directly for something to happen to Obama. But we also cannot divorce her comments from her public stature, her intelligence, her responsibility as a leader, or our history. So even with the most charitable interpretation, I think her negligence is disqualifying.

Well, the Jesse Jackson SC and RFK lines are Baby Boomers' historical references.

Why didn't Obamaites say it was beyond the pale when Olbermann suggested a SD go into a room and kill Clinton? Race does not trump gender. These are double standards.


--donna darko. I don't read or respond to comments. There's too much hate and misogyny here.
by nonwhiteperson on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:10:34 PM EST

Re: Context (2.00 / 1)

as far as I know, Olbermann isn't running for president.  


by Bargeron on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:11:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

War and Democrats (1.00 / 1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nc5lHXkrd Q8


by minnehot1 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:15:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: War and Democrats (none / 0)

what the deuce?


by Bargeron on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:24:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Olbermann has a Special Comment tonight (none / 0)

I can't wait


McCain's occupation plan will achieve victory when it bestows liberty to the freedom loving people of Iraq and their freedom loving oil.
by Lefty Coaster on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:28:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Olbermann has a Special Comment tonight (2.00 / 1)

Yes, why expect any more of his comments to be justified criticisms of the Bush administration?  From now on, the man who implied that Hillary should be beaten into submission should just devote all of his comments to tearing her to pieces.

Because it's not as though she is vulnerable to any assassination attempt, right?


by wilder on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:46:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Olbermann has a Special Comment tonight (2.00 / 1)

Breathtaking spin.


McCain's occupation plan will achieve victory when it bestows liberty to the freedom loving people of Iraq and their freedom loving oil.
by Lefty Coaster on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:04:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Olbermann has a Special Comment tonight (none / 0)

No, realism.


by wilder on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:09:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Olbermann has a Special Comment tonight (none / 0)

Breathtaking spin.


McCain's occupation plan will achieve victory when it bestows liberty to the freedom loving people of Iraq and their freedom loving oil.
by Lefty Coaster on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:04:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (2.00 / 1)

Exactly, and her apology for the remarks was to the Kennedys ONLY.

WTF? I keep looking for the class act to re-emerge to help bring the party together, and this is what I keep finding.

Is she really that dead set on destroying our party just for the slim-to-none chance that she might get a nomination (yeah I said dead and no I'm not running for president)?


by BeekerDynasty on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:34:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

Did you ever think that she only apologized to them because she wasn't even thinking about Obama when she made the comment?

Or that Obama isn't the only one vulnerable to an assassination attempt in this campaign?


by wilder on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:43:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (2.00 / 1)

Yeah, I considered that. But we are talking about context. The context of her remarks was that was explaining why she remains in the race for the Democratic nomination with Sen. Obama, not Sen. Kennedy

Do you really think that it hasn't crossed her mind that at least Obama's Secret Service detail may be just a bit freaked out by her implying that she's staying in, just in case he gets assasinated in June? Do you think she shouldn't appologize at least to them and Obama as well? Do you think this is good for the party? Seriously?


by BeekerDynasty on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:53:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

Yeah, and the context showed that she was talking about long primaries.  Only by reading a small snippet of her overall interview could someone twist her words into a covert threat to Obama.


by wilder on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:12:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (2.00 / 2)

I read the whole interview and the implication was extremely clear to me, she's staying in this in case something happens ... like Obama gets assassinated in June. I know apologists will try digging as deep in their memories as possible to explain this away, but it doesn't change what she said, the specific context of what she said, and the over-all context of when she said it.

This is beyond serious, and Clinton, of all people, should understand it ... deeply. That's why this is such a huge deal. Are you really naive enough to think that there's not at least one (if not hundreds) of "white, working-class, nutjobs-with-a-gun" Hillary supporters out there that are going to hear this and think "My leader wants me to assassinate her evil opponent in June"? This isn't hyperbole. All some not job needed to shoot Regan was a crush on Jodie Foster. And now Sen. Clinton gives the nutjobs of the world this. Terrific.


by BeekerDynasty on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:37:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

And I read it the opposite.  Again, I find it strange that you seem to think that only Obama is vulnerable to assassination.  Tell me, why is this?  Are you of the unique opinion that Hillary has no enemies?  Do you think she's made of steel and that the bullets would bounce right off?  Is it that you wouldn't care if she got assassinated?  What?


by wilder on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:42:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (2.00 / 1)

You know, I am sure, that she said the exact same thing back in March?

Time Blog:

Though she has now apologized for that very strange and tasteless comment to the Argus-Leader, this was not the first time she's said it. This from her interview with TIME Managing Editor Richard Stengel, published March 6:

   TIME: Can you envision a point at which--if the race stays this close--Democratic Party elders would step in and say, "This is now hurting the party and whoever will be the nominee in the fall"?

   CLINTON: No, I really can't. I think people have short memories. Primary contests used to last a lot longer. We all remember the great tragedy of Bobby Kennedy being assassinated in June in L.A. My husband didn't wrap up the nomination in 1992 until June. Having a primary contest go through June is nothing particularly unusual.

Her excuse now is that the Kennedys have been "much on my mind these days" with the illness of Senator Edward Kennedy, but that doesn't explain what brought it to mind more than two months ago.

http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/ 05/hillarys_bizarre_rfk_comment.html

Oh, no this 'reason' to stay in has been very much on her mind throughout the campaign!


by Wary on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:51:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

See my replies below.


by wilder on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:04:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

I think Obama COULD BE MORE vulnerable to assassination because Clinton keeps bringing it up. It's really that simple. What part of what post and what time did I ever state that ONLY Obama was vulnerable to assassination. What part of what post at what time did you ever get the idea that I wouldn't care if Clinton got assassinated? That's simply insulting as well as irrelevant to this discussion?=


by BeekerDynasty on Fri May 23, 2008 at 08:02:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

Didn't you say that this was, like, the second time she brought it up, in how many months?  If she is trying to plant a thought in the mind of some whackjob, wouldn't she have to repeat it a bit more often?

And of course, it's not possible that if she repeated it, it was because she was thinking of her own vulnerability?

So again, do you think it's not possible that she could be assassinated?  Or do you just not care?


by wilder on Fri May 23, 2008 at 08:54:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Just to add (none / 0)

>What part of what post and what time did I ever state that ONLY Obama was vulnerable to assassination.

The part where you only focused on Obama's vulnerability and did not consider Clinton's.  Perhaps I was reading too much into your comment... much like nearly every Obama supporter here has read too much into Clinton's comment.

>What part of what post at what time did you ever get the idea that I wouldn't care if Clinton got assassinated? That's simply insulting as well as irrelevant to this discussion?=

I would like to believe that Obama supporters would be stunned and horrified if Clinton faced an assassination attempt, much as I would be if Obama faced one or was assassinated.  But from the comments I read, the focus purely on Obama's vulnerabilities, makes me believe that you think he is the only one that matters.


by wilder on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:02:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Just to add (2.00 / 1)

I can only speak for myself, but yes I would be stunned and horrified if Sen. Clinton got shot as any decent human being would be.

I would also be stunned and horrified, and would WITHDRAW MY SUPPORT COMPLETELY from Obama if he said anything even close to this.


by BeekerDynasty on Sat May 24, 2008 at 10:31:10 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

Uhm no, I didn't first point out that this was the second time she brought this up ... something that makes it that more horrifying, read the thread.

Please explain to us why repeatedly bringing up assasination would be a smart thing to do if you're thinking about your own vulnerability. That's simply absurd, even I think Sen. Clinton is smarter than that.


by BeekerDynasty on Sat May 24, 2008 at 10:38:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (2.00 / 1)

Oh, quit hyperventilating about nothinig.  It's obvious she was pointing out that past campaigns were still going strong in June -- she emphasized the word June twice.  Her apology was for how her statement was misinterpreted given Ted Kennedy's cancer and the media rehashing the "Kennedy Curse," etc., not for having stated a fact.

It's not as though Obama's campaign isn't happy to exploit the "I'm worried he could be assassinated" pity card.  His supporters say it all the time.

***A


by adrienne4dean on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:15:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

Seriously? See above. I'm hardly hyperventilating and BS about Obama trying to exploit this. Give us one example.

I'm sure Obama, like the rest of us, is not particularly thrilled about the idea of getting assassinated.


by BeekerDynasty on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:53:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

Never the less her comments came off as "I want to stay in cuz someone might blow your brains out and I'll need to pick up the pieces."

I think she should apologize to him for comments that could be construed like that.


by MNPundit on Fri May 23, 2008 at 08:49:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It's a calculate move from Obama to dry up her (none / 0)

fundraising - everyone with a brain can clearly see that she was using references to time nothing more and for anyone to accuse her of anything else needs therapy! If I listen to your argument, then what about Michele's own words:

"I don't lose sleep over it because the realities are that . . . as a black man . . . Barack can get shot going to the gas station," Michelle Obama said in the interview, set to air Sunday night. "You can't make decisions based on fear and the possibility of what might happen."


by suzieg on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:56:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (2.00 / 1)

"A Clinton campaign spokesman said Clinton "was simply referencing her husband in 1992 and Bobby Kennedy in 1968 as historical examples of the nomination process going well into the summer. Any reading beyond that would be inaccurate." *************************************** Yeah, like she also referenced it back in March, so yes, this so called 'historical context' is clearly on her mind as a reason to 'stay in' and very much has been on her mind throughout the campaign. And her hubbie's 'contest' was over in late March, not June in the middle. From Time Blog: ""Though she has now apologized for that very strange and tasteless comment to the Argus-Leader, this was not the first time she's said it. This from her interview with TIME Managing Editor Richard Stengel, published March 6: TIME: Can you envision a point at which--if the race stays this close--Democratic Party elders would step in and say, "This is now hurting the party and whoever will be the nominee in the fall"? CLINTON: No, I really can't. I think people have short memories. Primary contests used to last a lot longer. We all remember the great tragedy of Bobby Kennedy being assassinated in June in L.A. My husband didn't wrap up the nomination in 1992 until June. Having a primary contest go through June is nothing particularly unusual. Her excuse now is that the Kennedys have been "much on my mind these days" with the illness of Senator Edward Kennedy, but that doesn't explain what brought it to mind more than two months ago."" http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/ 05/hillarys_bizarre_rfk_comment.html I'm sorry I just don't buy into that whole meme of this was merely a mistake, I'm tired and sorry 'people took it wrong" --I just don't buy it, not coming off of all the other so called 'gaffees' she's made in reference to voters in KY and WV--too, too, much going on. She's a lawyer, a US Senator, a Presidential candidate within the Democratic Party and she's making such 'gaffees'--she of anyone knows the power of words, for sure, and I think she said what she intended to say--and I think that after watching both videos several times and reading more about her 'mis statements'.
by Wary on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:44:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sorry (none / 0)

I screwed the above post format very badly, my apologies.


by Wary on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:54:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

I haven't heard you say that HER comments were "beyond the pale."  Why not?

I find the 100% pro-Obama bias to be just as annoying as the Jerome Armstrong led 100% pro-Clinton bias.

Both candidates make mistakes.


I voted for Hillary!
by deepee on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:13:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

Hillary called Obama an "elitist" for a statement he made. She went on about for days. But we should be nice to her and not throw her words back at him? Not a chance!


by kitebro on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:40:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Age (none / 0)

I'm four years younger than Hillary Clinton and I had no problem at all knowing that she was talking about a June primary and nothing more.  In fact, I can't see how you can see anything else in this comment.  Hillary would have been 20 at the time and the event would have been tied inextricably to the school year and to June.

I remember waking up in the middle of the night (Eastern time) and turning on the TV to see who won.  Bobby was giving his victory speech and it was all on live TV. It made far more of an impact than the JFK assasination on me because it was live. Just awful but clearly there was no intent to go beyond the time of year.

There's a huge generational communication problem here.  You see things she doesn't mean to say and she needs to learn how to communicate better, I guess, to 20 somethings.  


by David Kowalski on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:50:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Age (none / 0)

Explaining it in that way -- that HRC can't communicate to a younger generation -- doesn't make me root for her any harder.


by Baseballhead on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:13:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Age (none / 0)

I don't know if the problem would be fixed by Hillary talking to them differently.  Those who don't know history should learn it.


by wilder on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:15:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Age (2.00 / 1)

I stayed up that night too.  I will never forget.  I also knew Clinton was talking about the June primary in '68.  But she shouldn't have been.  
There are so many reasons.  Kennedy was winning, and she is mathematically out.  History does not treat parties with long presidential primaries well, and she knows it.  She is not staying in because she was inspired by Robert Kennedy.  She is not staying in because of anyone else.  This is her decision, and it is a bad one.  She is tired, she continues to make mistakes, the media hate her and the only coverage she gets or will get is coverage of mistakes or making her look bad.  It is past time to think of the country.
by stationakl on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:30:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (2.00 / 3)

Comparing what Keith Olbermann says with what HRC says is pretty silly.


by wasder on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:13:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (2.00 / 1)

Because KO is not a candidate for the democratic nomination?


by amitxjoshi on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:20:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (2.00 / 1)

But at least his words were clearly about her.  Whereas people here have had to perform some pretty artful interpretive dances to make it look as though Clinton is suggesting Obama be assassinated.


by wilder on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:48:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Context (2.00 / 2)

Clearly, the context here is Hillary discussing previous examples of races that had continued into June, including her husband's 1992 campaign and the 1968 campaign. She mentioned the assassination because it was a memorable event that most people could recall happened in June to back up her asssertion. That's all there was to it except for those who always have their knives out and ready to twist anything she says or does into a prosecutable crime punishable by death.


by phoenixdreamz on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:25:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (2.00 / 1)

AS I said before, we can all interpret the meaning of bringing up RFK in our own way.  Some will feel it's inexcusable, others no big deal.  Ultimately, I am interested to hear what the Kennedy's have to say.

Here's the thing though, how did she get her story wrong about Bill's '92 campaign.  She seems to lose her memory at really inopportune times!  Another misspeak?  And if it was, then what can we really trust about what she says?  Benefit of the doubt is one thing, but Hillary is too intelligent for all this, or so we're told.


by Chelseain32 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:52:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (2.00 / 1)

Because if she acknowledges that Bill had it wrapped up before June (numerically, he hadn't) then she is acknowledging that Obama has it wrapped up now (numerically, he hasn't).


by UncleDavid on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:07:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You distort Olbermann's words. (none / 0)

And I'm not an "Obamaite," whatever the hell that's supposed to be.  I'm tired of the diminutive nicknames.


John McCain: He flunked ECON 101.
by Shem on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:46:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

When did he do that?  That's crazy talk!!!


by Chelseain32 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:48:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thats not what he suggested (none / 0)

and you know it.

However, what he said was still pretty damn stupid.

What Clinton said today was also stupid.

The difference is Olbermann isn't asking us to elect him to something.


I read the body count out of the paper; now it's written all over my face.
by JDF on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:03:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (2.00 / 1)

They're just looking for a reason to start up the "she must drop out immediately" schtick.

It was tired then, and it's tired now.


by RobinLB on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:08:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (2.00 / 1)

Her candidacy is tired.


by mikeinsf on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:40:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (2.00 / 3)

Howard Dean didn't mean to sound like a lunatic when he let out that infamous scream.

But it still ended his candidacy.  

I was hoping for a Obama/Clinton ticket, but I just don't think it could happen now.  


by Bargeron on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:10:50 PM EST

Re: Context (2.00 / 1)

The media will pick it up and replay it a million times. Tweety was all over it a little while ago.

Very unfortunate for Hillary, but I wonder how whe would have jumped on it had Obama made a similar gaffe.


by parahammer on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:12:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

I thought Axelrod was classy about it on Hardball.


by Bargeron on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:13:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

Yes, I got the impression that Axelrod will be content to just stand on the sidelines and let this play out.


by parahammer on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:15:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

yeah, who wouldn't, really.  


by Bargeron on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:16:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

Wait! What was the context for the Dean Scream?

snark


McCain's occupation plan will achieve victory when it bestows liberty to the freedom loving people of Iraq and their freedom loving oil.
by Lefty Coaster on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:30:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Funny you should say that (none / 0)

because evidence showed that he didn't actually scream, and that the crowd noise blunted a lot of the effect.

But of course, people who had already decided that Howard Dean was craaa-zeee played the clip over and over again to prove how crazy he was because his comments weren't 100% scripted and he did "crazy" things like say the Iraq War was not worth it.  The "scream" is a fabrication.

It's nice to know, though, that there's always someone ready to point to distorted "evidence" to justify their pre-existing prejudices, whether it's "craaa-zeeee" Dean or Clinton suggesting Obama be assassinated.


by wilder on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:55:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Funny you should say that (none / 0)

I was a huge Dean supporter.  The point I am trying to make is that when you say or do stupid things, you cannot always control how they will be perceived.

Especially when they play into what people already think:  i.e., that Clinton is ruthless and will do or say anything to win.  


by Bargeron on Fri May 23, 2008 at 08:05:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Funny you should say that (none / 0)

Okay.  Then I (sadly) agree.


by wilder on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:21:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Funny you should say that (none / 0)

because evidence showed that he didn't actually scream, and that the crowd noise blunted a lot of the effect.

But of course, people who had already decided that Howard Dean was craaa-zeee played the clip over and over again to prove how crazy he was because his comments weren't 100% scripted and he did "crazy" things like say the Iraq War was not worth it.  The "scream" is a fabrication.

It's nice to know, though, that there's always someone ready to point to distorted "evidence" to justify their pre-existing prejudices, whether about "craaa-zeeee" Dean or Clinton suggesting Obama be assassinated.


by wilder on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:57:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (2.00 / 5)

I can admit that she made a dumb comment.  Great politicians do that.

Regardless, the 1968 analogy is bad.  There were what, 12 primaries that year?  It is like talking about the primary of 1870 or something.  DIfferrent rules back then.


I voted for Hillary!
by deepee on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:10:59 PM EST

Re: Context (none / 0)

this is an excellent point.  I hadn't thought about it that way.  


by Bargeron on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:16:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (2.00 / 1)

And in 1968 the biggest primary price, California, was still in play in june. That's quit different than South Dakota, Puerto Rico and Montana.


by Theis on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:18:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

And RFK had only been campaigning since March, not for over a year. And in 92 Bill wrapped up the nomination in April, as I remember, so that wasn't right either.


by myddfree on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:43:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

This is so Ironic (none / 0)

This is exactly the kind of game changing gaffe Hillary was hoping Obama would make.


McCain's occupation plan will achieve victory when it bestows liberty to the freedom loving people of Iraq and their freedom loving oil.
by Lefty Coaster on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:08:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is so Ironic (2.00 / 1)

Only to those who were vehemently opposed to her in the first place.


by wilder on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:17:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: This is so Ironic (2.00 / 1)

The media have been against her in the first place and they will hammer her with this.  She will never see another good press comment.  They were rare enough when she was in contention.  Now, she can only suffer more attacks.


by stationakl on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:34:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

Yeah, I mentioned that in the comments on the first post, but it was way down.
"In 1968, the primary had been going on for just over two and a half months by the start of June.  In 1992, the Iowa caucuses were uncontested, and the primary season again began in New Hampshire, so that the primaries had been running for just under three and a half months at the start of June."  
We're nearing five months now.
Yes, I'm aware there's a possible misogynist reading of the myth. Sorry.
by Endymion on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:37:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

If this was a one-time thing, it would be (none / 0)

different.


by bobdoleisevil on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:11:26 PM EST

Re: If this was a one-time thing, it would be (none / 0)

Indeed. She apparently made this comment before to Time Magazine.

http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/ 05/hillarys_bizarre_rfk_comment.html


by Yalin on Fri May 23, 2008 at 08:48:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

And Huckabee was just making a joke (2.00 / 1)

You Clinton apologist are somthing else


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:11:32 PM EST

Re: And Huckabee was just making a joke (2.00 / 2)

todd's not a clinton apologist.  He's been very even-handed throughout much of this, and I say that as an extreme Obama supporter.


It's all about McCain/Bush now...
by thereisnospoon on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:12:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And Huckabee was just making a joke (2.00 / 3)

compare this the post on huckabee

http://todd-beeton.mydd.com/story/2008/5 /16/20555/7360


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:19:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Excellent find. (none / 0)

Nice one.


John McCain: He flunked ECON 101.
by Shem on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:49:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Huckabee was just making a joke (none / 0)

Huckabee personally called Obama and apologized.  Huckabee said that Obama was very gracious about the whole thing and told him not to worry about it.

I've never liked Huckabee's policies but always thought that he was a class act.


by Destiny on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:14:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: And Huckabee was just making a joke (2.00 / 1)

I agree that Todd's been among the most sane yet outspoken Clinton supporters around, but there's clearly some cognitive dissonance here between his reaction to Huckabee and this.


The primaries are over!
Focus on McCain
by really not a troll on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:25:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Al, is David Axelrod a Clinton apologist? (none / 0)

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/obama- camp-reacts-to-clinton-rfk-remark/379624 1072

Video of Barack Obama's chief campaign strategist, David Axelrod, responding to Hillary Clinton referencing Robert F. Kennedy's assassination while saying that she is going to stay in the race for the Democratic nomination.


by TomP on Fri May 23, 2008 at 08:47:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

Thank you, Todd


by wilder on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:12:08 PM EST

Re: Context (2.00 / 3)

I agree, todd.  But on the other hand, simple respect to the Kennedy family at this point should have prevented her from making such comments.

To say nothing of the fact that she can easily SUSPEND her campaign just as Romney did--so that if Obama has a Spitzer moment or the unthinkable does happen--we do have a backup choice.

Making such an argument as a reason for staying fully in the race is simply asinine regardless.  And that's the biggest problem for me.


It's all about McCain/Bush now...
by thereisnospoon on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:12:10 PM EST

Re: Context (none / 0)

I agree with you Todd that the context is important in understanding what she meant. and I say this as a strong Obama supporter. I have too much respect for hillary Clinton to assume that she meant that she hoped for or even considered Obama's assassination.

That said, at this stage of things, I think this is the final nail, final straw, final whatever you want to say, for her presidential (and possibly vice-presidential) aspirations.


by wasder on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:12:35 PM EST

I find it funny (none / 0)

after all the stupid remarks she's made that should've hurt her and didn't, the media choses this obvious mistatement. It was clear to me, since this is what I first thought, that her point was "nominations can go into June"


The American people; they were for the war before they were against it.
by nrafter530 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:15:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I believe that is Irony, correct? (none / 0)

I am not a literature or English major though


Democrat for the democratic nominee
by KLRinLA on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:57:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

How many of those supposedly final straws have you obamaites came up with anyway? Funny that after all those, Hillary is still in it, bet that really pisses you off, huh?


by muggle on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:32:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

Is she actually still in it though?


by wasder on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:47:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (2.00 / 2)

Have to agree with you here, much overreaction from the Obama supporters on this one.
But I've noticed that people are overly sensitive about assasination in any discussion. Like if we never talk about it, Obama and Hillary will be safer.

by skohayes on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:12:52 PM EST

Re: Context (none / 0)

Weird how touchy people about that whole killing people thing.

/joke

I'm standing by my there are mistakes, there are bad mistakes, and then there are really bad mistakes. Reaching past any number of more relevant examples to pick one involving one of the greatest specters among black leaders to make a point that was irrelevant in the first place is well into the latter.  


by werehippy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:17:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

There is overwhelming evidence that when prominent people mention courses of action, crazy people feel that legitimizes that course of action.  Sometimes, not so crazy people.


Yes, I'm aware there's a possible misogynist reading of the myth. Sorry.
by Endymion on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:48:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You mean like your over reaction on ... (none / 0)

Bittergate....double standard!


by netgui68 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:10:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You mean like your over reaction on ... (none / 0)

I didn't have any overreactoin to his comments- I thought they were poorly worded and some people were insulted by the implications he made. That's about all I had to say on the matter.


by skohayes on Sat May 24, 2008 at 07:50:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

The Clintonites are becoming as delusional as the Bush freaks were a few years ago.  It's sad, really.


by marley on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:12:53 PM EST

Re: Context (2.00 / 1)

Were the Rev. Wright's comments taken "in context" of all the other sermons he gave?

Were Obama's "bitter" comments taken "in context" in regard to what his intentions behind them were?

All the "context" in the world don't make her comments any less disgusting.

Nice try to justify, but no thanks.


by doschi on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:13:27 PM EST

Re: Context (none / 0)

Just like Hillary was never, ever called a racist for statements she made that might not have been racist.


by wilder on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:23:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (2.00 / 1)

Thank you, Todd.

I've been waiting for a front page poster to combat this insanely trumped up scandal with a dose of reality.


by bellarose on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:13:37 PM EST

Re: Context (none / 0)

Trumped up?  Why?  So you are excusing Hillary's comments?


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:14:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I meant to do you... (none / 0)

... no personal injury, and if I did, beg your pardon.

Let us not assassinate this lad further, Senator. You have done enough. Have you no sense of decency sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?


by kraant on Fri May 23, 2008 at 08:36:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

Regardless of whether it was an honest screw-up, you just can't go there.  Hillary is smart enough to know that.  She has no one to blame but herself.


John McCain: Bush right to veto kids health insurance expansion
by Calvin Jones and the 13th Apostle on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:13:38 PM EST

Re: Context (2.00 / 1)

This is at least the second time she's mentioned it, so it wasn't a slip:

http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/ 05/hillarys_bizarre_rfk_comment.html

Makes her apology a bit questionable since she attributed bringing up RFK due to Sen. Kennedy's illness reminding her of the event. Clearly that wasn't the case as she brought up the same point in March.

Interesting, though, that it didn't get much traction back then.


by gcensr on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:23:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

If anything, that makes the case for her much better. It means that she's been using that as an argument about how long primary races aren't a problem for a while.


by OrangeFur on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:27:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Err... (none / 0)

... there's something wrong with your argument.

For some strange reason I can't quite put my finger on it.


by kraant on Fri May 23, 2008 at 08:38:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

It's clear that she meant both times that the primary contest was long and it was no big deal.

The reason it didn't get much traction is that everyone understood what she meant. Why everyone has suddenly lost their minds now I don't quite understand.


by OrangeFur on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:36:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

So it's the last thing people hear before they go off to enjoy the long weekend?


by bellarose on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:45:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

I think it makes it worse, it's not a misstatement anymore, but a planned line of attack.  I think it's completely irresponsible to raise that issue without very careful framing.  She needn't have mentioned assassination at all to make her point (as others have pointed out, notably Singer and Orton).

I'm not sure what the angle is.  Placing more importance on the VP decision, weakening Obama as a likely target for assassination, general FUD.  In her mind, it's probably worth the backlash.

She's remaining oblivious to the larger context, that calling to mind the assassination of any political figure is very dangerous territory, criminally careless for someone in her position.


"I'm all for the delegate battle, and now that Obama's campaign is too, I'm all giddy. It's going to be the supers as kingmaker." J.Armstrong 01/19/08
by obscurant on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:12:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I know she doesn't want Obama dead (2.00 / 4)

but as an experiened and seasoned politician this comment is a major gaffe. She should know better than to use words that can set of a media firestorm. She should know better than to invoke Bobby Kennedy when their are better and less controversial examples. She should know better when people like me fear the worst for Senator Obama.

As a politician she mad a huge blunder.

What surprises me even more is the attacks on Obama and his supporters by some Clinton supporters on Josh's front page. They even attacked Josh directly. Why the hate?

The same people who recc'ed numerous diaries on Bittergate, Fingergate and Keith Olbermanngate are the same ones crying foul for taking words out of context.

What's with the OUTRAGE about the outrage?

It just reeks of hipocrisy.


Obama/Clark (still dreaming)
by spacemanspiff on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:13:49 PM EST

Re: Context (none / 0)

You are half right.

Her point was the race was still going on in June (Bill's 92) and anything can happen, Kennedy assassination.  

It does not move her away from the comment.

No parsing will change the 4th reference she has made to potential assassination.  


"The best way to show that a stick is crooked is not by arguing about it or spending time denouncing it, but to lay a straight stick alongside it" -DL Moody
by nextgen on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:14:11 PM EST

Re: Context (none / 0)

That was not her point at all.  You're delusional.


by bellarose on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:16:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

I guess so, if you ignore the fact that she says over and over "anything can happen"


"The best way to show that a stick is crooked is not by arguing about it or spending time denouncing it, but to lay a straight stick alongside it" -DL Moody
by nextgen on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:20:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

Dude, I just read the original statement AND I saw the video.

I then read her apology to the Kennedy family.  She never said "anything can happen" in either quote.


by bellarose on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:35:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (2.00 / 1)

If you are right, she wouldn't have needed to mention the assassination at all. She could have just mentioned that the 68 primary went through June.

Unfortunately, both today and on March 6 (see: http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/ 05/hillarys_bizarre_rfk_comment.html) she specifically mentioned his assassination. That's problematic for her.


by gcensr on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:25:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

Since the context was over how long Democratic Primaries can go, the comment makes sense.  RFK's run was cut short and would have gone to the convention had he not been assassinated.


by bellarose on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:43:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

She could of used many, less controversial, examples...A poor choice in the least.


Obama supporter who is damn glad Hillary Clinton is a Democrat!!
by hootie4170 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:01:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

There are two ways to read her comments.

1) Anything can happen (Assassination!) so I'll stay in

2) Contests often go through June

I lean more towards her meaning #2 but it was totally idiotic for her to use the RFK assassination in her example.  Twice apparently since she said the same thing a couple weeks ago.

I also think it's likely that she and her campaign have discussed the possibility of an Obama assassination, and used that as a reason to stay in the race.  I am NOT saying that she would wish that to happen, just that they have discussed the possibility.  

Maybe that is another reason this RFK example keeps popping out of her mouth.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:15:06 PM EST

Re: Context (none / 0)

But the second claim is clearly bull.  This primary campaign started earlier than any other.  It's already gone on almost as long as the spread between the start of the 68 primary and the 68 Convention.  


Yes, I'm aware there's a possible misogynist reading of the myth. Sorry.
by Endymion on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:46:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

I agree that her claim about primaries historically not being wrapped up was bullshit.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Fri May 23, 2008 at 08:02:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Everybody Needs A Vacation (2.00 / 1)

Hillary needs a vacation.  Bill needs a vacation.  Barack needs a vacation.  Michelle needs a vacation.  Every last staff person on both campaigns needs a vacation.  Pundits need a vacation.  Bloggers most definately need a vacation.  The only people who don't need a vacation are in Congress (candidates excepted)-- all they ever do is take vacations.  

People say & do really stupid things when they have been campaigning pratically nonstop for over 16 months.  People are not as effective when they have been going this long.  As an Obama supporter I'll give her the benefit of the doubt, but Hillary, and EVERYBODY else, get some rest and get some perspective and let's come back and begin the campaign to beat McSame.


by howardpark on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:16:20 PM EST

Re: Everybody Needs A Vacation (none / 0)

This is what I do for vacation, blog. But again, may be I don't have a life.

I agree with post that we should move on. Clinton meant no harm and quickly apologized to people who were offended. Clinton has a what you see is what you get personality, and sometimes comes across a little crass.

It's been a long primary season, and people are tired and feelings have been hurt. Because feelings have been hurt, we have become overly sensitive to what is said. In the past, when Clinton has talked about RFK's assassination, no big deal was ever made. No big deal was ever made about Obama's statement about the Bataan death march.

We've got a fall election coming up. It's the Democrat's election to lose. The only chance Republicans have of winning the White House is if the Democratic Party disintergrates. Unfortunately, they may get their wish.


Dizzy Zzyzzy
by Zzyzzy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:29:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Everybody Needs A Vacation (none / 0)

This is what I do for vacation, blog. But again, may be I don't have a life.

I agree with the post that we should move on. Clinton meant no harm and quickly apologized to people who were offended. Clinton has a what you see is what you get personality, and sometimes comes across a little crass.

It's been a long primary season, and people are tired and feelings have been hurt. Because feelings have been hurt, we have become overly sensitive to what is said. In the past, when Clinton has talked about RFK's assassination, no big deal was ever made. No big deal was ever made about Obama's statement about the Bataan death march.

We've got a fall election coming up. It's the Democrat's election to lose. The only chance Republicans have of winning the White House is if the Democratic Party disintergrates. Unfortunately, they may get their wish.


Dizzy Zzyzzy
by Zzyzzy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:31:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Context (none / 0)

If she's just trying to make the point that some primaries can go into June, then she has many more examples from which to choose. Why Why Why would she use this one?

It's just fucked up in every way, especially given the fact that prominent black leaders of the past generally did not survive into their prime.

When you have black families across America watching his victory speech in Iowa saying "Holy Shit he just might do it" and then becoming scared for his life, scanning the room for anything suspicious. Whatever the hell she meant, it was stupid all around.


John McCain defends Bush's Iraq strategy.
by recusancy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:16:39 PM EST

Re: Context (2.00 / 1)

And the response from the Obama camp is pushing Clinton supporters even further away. How am I supposed to vote for Obama if he's the nominee, if this is the kind of exploitive shit they peddle against someone I admire fiercely. What I see happening her is the Obama camp exploiting RFK's assassination to justify further calls for Clinton to leave the race.

I didn't think I could hold the campaign in lower regard than I did already, but for me, Josh Orton and the rest of the Obama supporters have now stepped too far over the line of decent behavior for me to take them seriously as progressives. They don't even know that the respectful thing to do - if you  admire RFK - is to let this go. This is an inartful statement but they're exploitation of it is far uglier than anything they accuse Clinton of.

No, Clinton shouldn't leave the race over this. This is nothing more than inartful statement of historical fact.


by glitterannebegay on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:16:53 PM EST

Re: Context (2.00 / 1)

Yeah like she let "bitter" and "No preconditions" go.


by parahammer on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:21:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

True (none / 0)

But what good does it do Obama to harp on these comments if they are as inconsequential?  Hillary's lost.  There's nothing to gain by attacking her for something like this.

It seems petty.


Support Regina Thomas, GA-12
by Drew on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:55:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: True (none / 0)

When did he "harp" on these statements?  If anything all of his surrogates have said they feel it was taken out of context...Why does this always come back on Obama.


Obama supporter who is damn glad Hillary Clinton is a Democrat!!
by